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post #31 of 44
Nega-watts will probably never be sexy. Neither is insulation or walking to work. But when the US economy finally grinds to a stagflationary halt people will either freak out or figure out what their needs really are and how to meet them, albeit in a down-shifted format (Nega-bucks). I've been preparing myself, and those around me who are interested, for the past 35 years. I still haven't neatly worked out all of the details. But I can see lots of the threads in the previous postings.

As Dmitry Orlov, who saw the Soviet econonic collapse up-close says, "...of each important thing in your life, you will be prepared to answer two very important questions: "Is it collapse-proof?" and, if it is not, "What can I do to make it collapse-proof?" and if, for a given thing the answer turns out to be "No" and "Nothing", then the very important follow-up question should be:"How can I live without it?"

You can focus on individual solutions and head more toward the survivalist pole, or you can work toward community-based solutions. But if you aren't prepared to meet your own needs on every level you may not be as useful to those around you as you think. And on the other hand, the more you learn needs-based conservation the less you may have in common with the energy hogs around you! It's nice to see people thinking about conserving energy, but, as the first post mentions, out-of-control population growth got us here so keep in mind that, for survival of the species, you may have some life purpose other than DNA replication. That's where I tell most people to start their thought processes.

I'd go into more detail about what we do here (http://www.geopathfinder.com) , but as Obi Wan would say, the rest is just "simple tricks and nonsense".
post #32 of 44
With the borrowing from China to support the present spending - the US is in trouble. Maybe if they run up the account enough they will want a seat on the board (say vice president)

Worse yet, the economic recovery act (or whatever it is called) that is to pull the US out of recession had only distributed about 6.8% of the funds as of a week or 10 days back.

The funds will be spent - that is guaranteed! No politician ever gives back or fails to spends all there is available. Problem is the spending was to be to assist with the current mess, not for future use - at least I thought so.

Having said that, they way out is onward and upward - not in retreat. 

Not enough responce to the first time you posted the link Bob?

 
post #33 of 44
Hi Russ,

I don't know who reads which posts, when, or with which topic-specific page on our site, so I added the general one in my comments. Sorry for the overload.

Onward and upward mean very different things to those with/without an income. Or to those living somewhere with mainly a petroleum based infrastructure versus a more rural, locally based economy.

Read Orlov's book, then keep telling me I'm backward.
post #34 of 44
There is zero doubt that conservation should come before generation. Then level of generation needed depends upon view points.

If there ever is a rural, local based economy  it will mean all systems have failed and mankind is regressing back to the trees. The rural economy was OK with few people around but no longer. The idea of 250 million Americans and going back to a rural economy would mean chaos and anarchy.

I am not interested in Orlov's book really but I have visited Russia on business and saw first hand their problems - my opinion: 1) zero government control over the new rich, 2) zero experience with business in the general population - people suddenly had to think for themselves which was an alien experience and 3) zero statesmen in power during the collapse - there were some good people but Yeltsin and his vodka bottle made a total disaster.

Though there may be setbacks, such as the current recession, I am confident that the world will continue to make progress.

During my working years I lived in many countries around the world and visited more. One thing that became very apparent to me was that the worker back home that wanted to sit back and let the union or others to take care of them should start collecting bags because in the not too distant future they will be able to use those bags to collect rags and other trash in - just like the 3rd world.

The American dream of work hard and get ahead (including study) is very much alive. The end of the American (false) dream of sitting back and having a good life just because of ones birth place (mine for example) and having a 'right' to a constantly improving life style has arrived. 

If one wants to do better in life they have to make the effort to achieve it. 
post #35 of 44
Says the priveledged American who already acheived it? I guess the moderator always gets the last and most authoritative word here.  Regarding the oil-based, worldwide economic system, time will tell. Some of us just won't be around to see the end of the debate.
post #36 of 44
 Hi Bob, We just start off from totally different mind sets.

Whatever little I achieved was through hard work and very long hours over the years plus being lucky. I was fortunate enough to work with great people over the years in developing the iron ore direct reduction process, designing, constructing and operating those same plants. Being atthe forefront of technological development is fun!

I would like my kids to be able to enjoy life in their retirement years which is is maybe 43 years for the daughter and 45 years for the son. In the next twenty years I will see changes but probably the biggest will come later. If the world works hard and works smart they should be able to.

The end of oil is coming (actually the slowing down of hydrocarbon use) - yes, but it is not the end of life as we know it. The ox cart, Pony Express, sailing ship and many other important eras have passed by only to be replaced and improved on by the next. That is the truth again today.  

Everyone gets the last say/authorative say. Even though I don't agree with what you say and represent, I have not said anything very negative about it - Voltaire said it right.
post #37 of 44
I think we're might all have to agree to disagree.  And to a certain degree....time will tell.

I hope we'll be able to find some kind of happy medium between the lifestyles many in Western societies are used to and sustainable living.  While I think certain "luxuries" will need to be forgone (driving a Hummer as an example) and we will have to conserve (i.e. CFLs, taking public transit or human-powered transit when possible, etc), there are some pretty cool things that shouldn't go by the wayside.  For example...the internet!    The power it's had on information dissemination is amazing.

Back in the day when I was in school we had to have a debate of "global warming versus human ingenuity."  On the one hand, some people had to argue that human ingenuity would always save the day.  On the other hand, the other half of the class had to argue that global warming was too big, even for the cognitive powers of the human mind.  While I don't think it's that black and white, I hope the future will be lead by intelligent, creative folks who know environmental stewardship is important.  No matter where we end up coming in on the spectrum of total societal collapse (a la I Am Legend style) or total success, we need good leadership across the board.
post #38 of 44
We now recycle more stuff that ever at home.  I'm not talking about our trash either.  My wife loves car boot sales and so do I.  You can find almost anything at a car boot sale and it will be a recycled thing.  Someone doesn't want something any more, you want it, some cash changes hands.  But no new raw materials were used.  Even my expanding collection of solar panels is now recycled rather than "new".  People who have bought small solar panels and upgraded or those who dabbled and are giving up sell them to me through eBay.

I even buy old picket fences at car boot sales.  The recycled wood is useful for building things (like the frames for the recycled solar panels...).  It's far more efficient to recycle things like wood by using them as wood, rather than pulp them for paper.

So much stuff that is useful gets thrown away into land fill that it's practically criminal.

The only problem is that if everyone does it, the economy will go bust as nobody will ever buy anything truely "new" again!  The shoping arcades are empty on a weekend these days here - because they're all at the car boot sales - thousands of them!  Somtimes it looks like a music festival in these fields where they hold the sales.  Clothes, electricals, books, furniture, tools, toys, cars, whatever you want.  I even found all the parts I needed to make an exercise bicycle generator for a laugh... although it took me a few weeks to find someone selling a multi-pole DC motor and drive belt from a scrapped washing machine...  Did I mention you can find ANYTHING at these sales :D
post #39 of 44
Hah, so AccordGuy, are you a fan of the car boot sales? 

We've got a lot of flea markets and side walk sales in this neck of the woods. In the park near my apartment, there's even a "free" exchange once a month. People can come with their stuff one Saturday every month and it's actually all about just giving things away to people who need it. It's definitely a great way to reuse.

It's definitely interesting to think about the economy in relation to recycling and reusing. Of course, when you buy something that's used, your dollars aren't getting counted in a country's GDP. There's got to be some balance of the equation where you can take into account the positive environmental externalities of not consuming those extra raw materials. But when you're looking at raw dollars and cents, measuring GDP is a pretty set in stone formula.

As an aside, how many recycled solar panels have you made?
post #40 of 44
Thanks Dan1 for posting that list.  I think spreading energy saving ideas saves more energy than switching to a hybrid or buying solar panels will ever do.  The people that waste the most just don't seem to know any better, or are not willing to spend hundreds of dollars on a new furnace when all the need to do is change the Furnace filter .
post #41 of 44
Water conservation is by far the easiest thing for all of us to do. It saves water and energy (hot water) and money.  Simple things like this shower timer http://digiventions.com/category/27538794181/1/Eco-Health-Timers.htm  can help conserve water and save you money.

Check the sprinklers in your yard as well. Lots of times heads are leaking or broken. Optimizing and continutualy adjusting run time based on time of season and wheather changes can also help.

This is the one thing we should all do and train our kids to do. Its easy, saves money and can be done now.
post #42 of 44

Hello all,

 

I believe that state governments in certain areas are offering subscidies on residential solar panel installation. I think there should be a policy on carbon credits for indiviudals as well, on similar lines are industrial carbon credits. I just hope some day, a pro-green government will authenticate individual carbon credit policy. Individuals can use these credits for tax benefits. I think this would be a great step in promoting solar energy use in residential areas.

 

wat say?

 

solarfasttrack

 

post #43 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobdowser View Post

Nega-watts will probably never be sexy. Neither is insulation or walking to work. But when the US economy finally grinds to a stagflationary halt people will either freak out or figure out what their needs really are and how to meet them, albeit in a down-shifted format (Nega-bucks). I've been preparing myself, and those around me who are interested, for the past 35 years. I still haven't neatly worked out all of the details. But I can see lots of the threads in the previous postings.

As Dmitry Orlov, who saw the Soviet econonic collapse up-close says, "...of each important thing in your life, you will be prepared to answer two very important questions: "Is it collapse-proof?" and, if it is not, "What can I do to make it collapse-proof?" and if, for a given thing the answer turns out to be "No" and "Nothing", then the very important follow-up question should be:"How can I live without it?"

You can focus on individual solutions and head more toward the survivalist pole, or you can work toward community-based solutions. But if you aren't prepared to meet your own needs on every level you may not be as useful to those around you as you think. And on the other hand, the more you learn needs-based conservation the less you may have in common with the energy hogs around you! It's nice to see people thinking about conserving energy, but, as the first post mentions, out-of-control population growth got us here so keep in mind that, for survival of the species, you may have some life purpose other than DNA replication. That's where I tell most people to start their thought processes.

I'd go into more detail about what we do here (http://www.geopathfinder.com) , but as Obi Wan would say, the rest is just "simple tricks and nonsense".


I found this post very interesting. I've always felt that for the future to be more viable, societies will inevitably have to return to village-like communities, albeit with further technological advancements. Were it to occur, I feel that humankind will benefit from a more relaxed, everyone helps everyone lifestyle, currently juxtasupposed by the stressful, do-me, urban living that is popularized by mainstream media.

 

Joe Ng

www.thegoodbanana.com

post #44 of 44

Conservation is highly important! My new e-book novel is based around the idea of nature getting back at those who have participated in its slaughtering. You can find a link to it here:  http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/310763 . I believe some of you may enjoy it! smile.gif

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