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BMW hydrogen-gas hybrid!

post #1 of 13
Thread Starter 

Hydrogen-gas hybrid from BMW...I like.  Apparently you can decide when it uses gas or hydrogen by the push of a manual button.  According to the article below, BMW claims that its hydrogen is produced by wind, solar, or other renewable sources -- thus making it truly zero emissions.  Accurate?  Thoughts?  How different is this, really?

 

 

 

 

A Sedan Fueled by the Future

By LAWRENCE ULRICH

LONG lists of restrictions are familiar to journalists who drive press cars from automakers’ fleets: no smoking, no racing, no loaning the keys to your fugitive brother-in-law.

But one prohibition placed on the BMW Hydrogen 7, a 760Li luxury liner modified to run on hydrogen in addition to its normal gasoline diet, was an eye-opener: The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey would not permit the car to be driven through the Lincoln or Holland Tunnels or on the lower level of the George Washington Bridge.

It seems that BMW drew the Port Authority’s attention when it began pumping liquid hydrogen into its small test fleet of dual-fuel sedans in Port Jersey, not far from the docks where BMWs disembark after their voyage from Germany. And historically speaking, it’s fair to say that the last hydrogen-dependent German flagship that docked in New Jersey left a lasting impression.

So while BMW designed the Hydrogen 7 to be as explosion-resistant as any gasoline car, memories of the Hindenburg zeppelin cause misunderstandings among consumers and bureaucrats, a company spokesman acknowledged.

As with hydrogen cars from Ford, General Motors, Honda and others, showcasing hydrogen’s carbon-free potential is the BMW’s reason for being. But unlike far-costlier fuel-cell cars — which generate electricity through a chemical reaction of gaseous hydrogen and oxygen — the BMW runs on either liquid hydrogen or gasoline in a familiar internal-combustion engine.

When it is running on hydrogen, water vapor is the main byproduct, as shown by a damp spot beneath the bumper when the car idles. Emissions of carbon dioxide and nitrogen oxides are nearly zero, with just traces resulting from the engine’s lubricating oil and the heat of combustion.

BMW built its demonstration fleet of 100 Hydrogen 7s beginning in 2006 and keeps eight in the New York area and a dozen in Los Angeles, where testers have included the celebrities Leonardo DiCaprio, Brad Pitt, Will Ferrell and Edward Norton. All told, the 100 BMWs have logged more than a million miles in testing around the world.

Automakers like Ford and Mazda are also experimenting with the technology of using hydrogen in conventional engines. Ford has built roughly 30 hydrogen powered V-10 buses for commercial customers in the United States and Canada, including major airports, the city of Las Vegas and SeaWorld Orlando. In Japan, Mazda is road-testing a Premacy hydrogen hybrid minivan that combines a rotary engine with an electric motor and lithium-ion batteries.

BMW’s Hydrogen 7 is powered by the same 6-liter V-12 found in the 760Li, re-engineered to handle the special qualities of hydrogen, including separate injection systems for each fuel. But the real gee-whiz factor is at the rear, where tanks hold 17.5 pounds of hydrogen and 16 gallons of gasoline.

Inside that hydrogen tank is nature’s lightest element, super-chilled to 423 degrees below zero. At that temperature, nearing the frigid cold of outer space, hydrogen becomes a liquid and shrinks to about one-thousandth the volume, allowing the tank to pack in more fuel. Yet the vacuum-insulated tank felt room temperature to the touch, so well sealed that a block of ice inside would take 13 years to fully melt, BMW engineers say, and a fill-up of coffee would remain hot enough to drink three months later.

The hydrogen tank leaves only enough trunk space for a pair of golf bags; a second-generation tank that fits the space more efficiently has been designed. The company is working with other automakers to create a standardized refueling system.

When the car is parked for extended periods, the evaporating hydrogen builds pressure that must be safely released. A boil-off system mixes the hydrogen with air, runs it through a catalytic converter and releases water vapor through a rear-bumper vent.

Redundant safety systems abound. If the pressure inside the tank rises too high, a vent in the roof can release gaseous hydrogen directly. And if the car happened to roll over and block the roof opening, hydrogen would reroute through the underbody. A hydrogen detection system makes the car’s four door locks glow red to warn of leaking fuel in the trunk, fuel nozzle area or under the hood; windows automatically open if hydrogen should enter the cabin.

Yet aside from billboard-size Clean Energy logos on the sides, little about the car offers clues to the crazy chemistry inside. The BMW starts conventionally. Pressing a button on the steering wheel let me switch instantly from gas to hydrogen power and back again, even while the car was moving.

The 7 idles louder when running on hydrogen, and under power, it drones a bit compared with the heady V-12 rush you’re used to from the gasoline-only 760Li. Because the engine output is reduced when it burns hydrogen, BMW detuned the gas-burning mode to match, ensuring that drivers wouldn’t feel any difference in performance when switching between the fuels.

The engine makes a mere 260 horsepower, compared with a mighty 438 in the gas-only version. The 5.4 zero-to-60 sprint of the 760Li turns into a 9.5-second crawl. (I got smoked off the line by a Honda Odyssey minivan).

Despite the tepid acceleration and a weight gain of several hundred pounds over the 4,900-pound 760Li, the car is a delight to drive, steering and handling as brilliantly as the gas-only version.

BMW conservatively estimates a 125-mile range on hydrogen, with another 300 miles on gasoline. Yet during my test drive, the BMW was on pace to top 140 miles from its hydrogen before I switched backed to gasoline; according to the trip computer, I could have driven 200 miles on a highway cruise.

BMW sees that internal combustion engine and dual-fuel ability as an edge over fuel cells, in both cost and to ease the transition from gasoline. Unlike a fuel-cell car, the Hydrogen 7 can rely on today’s gasoline stations to carry it between hydrogen pumps that are still largely theoretical in the United States.

BMW declined to estimate what the Hydrogen 7 might cost, but a spokesman, Tom Plucinsky, said it could be sold at a “manageable premium” over the $125,000 gas-only 760Li. In contrast, experts still peg the price of building fuel-cell cars at $500,000 or more. BMW noted that its hydrogen fuel is produced using only wind, solar or other renewable energy, making the 7’s operation almost entirely emissions-free.

BMW does agree with the chicken-and-egg argument of fuel-cell proponents: if energy companies or the government won’t jump-start the hydrogen infrastructure, the cars must come first.

“A hundred years ago, there certainly wasn’t a gas station on every corner,” a BMW spokesman, Dave Buchko, said. In California, one initiative calls for building 150 to 200 hydrogen stations along major highways by 2010, at a projected cost of $75 to $200 million.

If the hydrogen economy fails to take off, BMW is hedging its bets with other technologies. The company plans to unveil an all-electric Mini Cooper at this year’s Los Angeles auto show; no date has been announced for sales.

post #2 of 13

Sounds cool and all, but the basic problems with hydrogen cars still remain unanswered.

 

1) Where are you going to get the hydrogen fuel?  Lack of fueling infrastructure.

 

2) How green is it really?  That's great that BMW gets their hydrogen from renewable energy, but for one thing that's pretty difficult to implement on a large nationwide scale.  Then another question is what their source of hydrogen is.  Currently 96% of hydrogen in the US comes from fossil fuels.

 

3) Cost.  As the article stated, you're still looking at hundreds of thousands of dollars.

 

4) Inefficiency.  In the end you've still got the fundamentally less efficient process of using electrical energy to separate the hydrogen for use in a fuel cell instead of storing that energy directly in a battery to power an electric motor.  Electric cars are simply more efficient.

post #3 of 13
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dana1981:

Sounds cool and all, but the basic problems with hydrogen cars still remain unanswered.

 

1) Where are you going to get the hydrogen fuel?  Lack of fueling infrastructure.

 

 

At least for this hydrogen-gasoline model, might this mitigate the problem of a lack of fueling infrastructure? (to the extent that one lives reasonably near a station...given that the hybrid car could run on gasoline alone if a hydrogen station weren't in convenient proximity)....

 

Writing this, I wondered where exactly one might find fueling stations, and how they're distributed across the country.  I came across this National Hydrogen Fueling Station Database, where you can search by country/state to find fueling stations.  Neat.

 

post #4 of 13

HYBRIDE  is not a solution, or temperaly.

Buy solar panels and a electric vehicle (ex  VECTRIX) and thats it.

 

Zero emision transportation, no fuel cost, no noise, no files

Free electricity for home and heating( airco), e.a.

grtz

geert

post #5 of 13

As great an efficient as electric vehicles are, most people (especially in the US) want a vehicle that can go more than 100 miles before having to wait hours to 'fill up' once EVs overcome this weakness they will take off like crazy. Until that time hybrids are a decent temporary solution, though Dana's reservations about this hybrid gas/hydrogen vehicle are relvant.

post #6 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lola:

 

At least for this hydrogen-gasoline model, might this mitigate the problem of a lack of fueling infrastructure? (to the extent that one lives reasonably near a station...given that the hybrid car could run on gasoline alone if a hydrogen station weren't in convenient proximity)....

 

Writing this, I wondered where exactly one might find fueling stations, and how they're distributed across the country.  I came across this National Hydrogen Fueling Station Database, where you can search by country/state to find fueling stations.  Neat.

 


 

That's certainly helpful, but there still aren't very many hydrogen stations nationwide.  Really it's less convenient than even an electric car, which you can plug in to recharge at home.  If you've got one hydrogen station in your area, you always have to be able to get there to refuel before you run out of hydrogen.

 

This problem is probably the easiest to solve, although it will be very expensive.  My main problems are the environmental impact of obtaining the hydrogen fuel, the cost of the vehicles themselves, and that they're inherently less efficient than EVs.  It will take hydrogen cars more time to solve these problems than it will take EVs to solve the range and recharge issues.  So then once hydrogen cars become a viable option, EVs will already be well-established.

 

What it boils down to is that the only major downside to EVs are the range and refuel time.  Hydrogen can potentially solve those problems, but if EVs can solve them first, there's just no need for hydrogen cars.


Edited by dana1981 - Tue, 22 Jul 2008 15:52:46 UTC
post #7 of 13
Thread Starter 

 I hear that, Dana.  Are there any advocacy groups which are neutrally trying to get everyone to push on developing one type of these alternative energies for cars?  That is, I feel like efforts right now are pretty diffuse (electric, hydrogen, natural gas), and it might be more impactful if everyone focused on one....

post #8 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lola:

 I hear that, Dana.  Are there any advocacy groups which are neutrally trying to get everyone to push on developing one type of these alternative energies for cars?  That is, I feel like efforts right now are pretty diffuse (electric, hydrogen, natural gas), and it might be more impactful if everyone focused on one....


 

No, I don't think there's much people can do in this area.  Car companies will build whatever they feel is the best technology which people will buy.  If a company like Honda wants to hedge its bets and develop both hybrid and hydrogen (and natural gas) cars, that's their perrogative.

 

The industry shift is pretty clearly going toward electric on its own.  Virtually every major auto company is working on either plug-in hybrids, electric cars, or both.  At this point only a couple are working on hydrogen.  Toyota and GM both shelved their hydrogen development programs recently.  There are tons of small companies working on EVs but none that I know of working on hydrogen cars as well.

 

I think most companies are already seeing the writing on the wall that electric is the way to go.

post #9 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lola:

 That is, I feel like efforts right now are pretty diffuse (electric, hydrogen, natural gas), and it might be more impactful if everyone focused on one....

 

It might be more impactful if everyone focused on developing one type of technology but that's how we got where we are now, everyone developed internal combustion engine technology and ignored all others. I think it better that many avenues are explored and the best one wins in the end.

 

Right now that looks like EVs, but there could be some breakthrough tomorrow where someone discovers a way to seperate water into hydrogen and oxygen with less energy input than you get back burning it? You never know what technology might be invented.

post #10 of 13

The consensus seems to be that EVs will overcome their limitations before hydrogen becomes relevant (if at all).

 

Plus, there's no way in hell I'm ever buying a Beamer :P

post #11 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterA650:

The consensus seems to be that EVs will overcome their limitations before hydrogen becomes relevant (if at all).

 

 

Really I would be shocked if that weren't the case.  EVs are almost there.  We've got several highway speed EVs capable of 100 miles per charge on the near horizon, and at a reasonable price.  If EEStor comes though, we'll have an affordable EV with 250 mile per charge capability in just over a year.

 

On the other hand, hydrogen has a number of serious fundamental roadblocks in its way.  Unless there's some sort of major breakthrough, it's decades away from widespread viability.  And hydrogen needs to beat EVs to the market, because it's inherently less efficient.  But EVs are already on their way to the market.

 

So in my opinion it would be shocking if EVs didn't dominate the market over hydrogen for decades to come.

post #12 of 13

Hydrogen may well be the fuel to bet on in the long term. It is the most abundant and, all other factors being equal, the cheapest (bmw parts). Gas, ethanol, coal and organic waste can all be converted into hydrogen. Water can be separated into hydrogen and oxygen, if you have enough cheap electricity to do it (and experts say we can get that cheap electricity from geothermal plants).

 

** edited to remove link in violation of Commercial Use Policy


Edited by admin - Thu, 19 Feb 2009 01:45:13 GMT
post #13 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by khooper:

Hydrogen may well be the fuel to bet on in the long term. It is the most abundant and, all other factors being equal, the cheapest (bmw parts). Gas, ethanol, coal and organic waste can all be converted into hydrogen. Water can be separated into hydrogen and oxygen, if you have enough cheap electricity to do it (and experts say we can get that cheap electricity from geothermal plants).

 

See, but hydrogen isn't abundant unless you have a carrier molecule (i.e. natural gas or water) and electricity to break the molecular bonds.  And if you have electricity, why waste it separating the hydrogen instead of storing it directly in a battery and then powering a highly efficient electric motor?  Hydrogen cars just don't make sense.

 

Also, hydrogen cars are very much not cheap because the fuel cells require platinum.  The Honda FCX Clarity fuel cell car is leasing for $600/month.

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