Which is greener: bidets or toilet paper? - Page 2

I believe a substantial portion of the the water from the septic system moves up to the surface and evaporates. I remember buying a house in North Carolina during a drought period - 86 maybe - it was very easy to see where the runs were for the septic system.

I suppose that would depend greatly on the soil type. In Charlotte, NC the subsoils were a very heavy clay. Here in Izmir I accidentally left a hose run all night and pumped 13 m3 into the ground - zero run off. The subsurface is fractured limestone for the most part.

The impact at your mountain house (total water taken away from the source) would be less than on a sewer system for sure! 

Good thought, The soil type would make a difference, as well as the distance to bedrock. I our case it is decoposed Granite. Very permeable. Perc tetsts showed rapid absorption.

I'm so glad to see that someone has asked this question -- I almost think that it is one of those taboo subjects that is off limits.

I am not entirely sure if I can offer a valuable contribution because I don't know the statistics regarding paper used vs. water used, but in my humble opinion, cleaning with water seems more eco-friendly and definitely more hygenically sound. Also, I don't think that you necessarily have to invest in a costly bidet to get the effects of a bidet. With a little creative ingenuity, you can achieve that "just showered feeling" every time you pass by a sink! 

The gentleman featured in this video argues in favor of using 100% recycled toilet paper, and I agree that it is a completely worthy alternative to plush virgin paper pulp tissue. Frankly, I don't care how downy soft paper can be since it's just flushed down the toilet anyway. If you can't imagine using a sink or bidet to clean up,  then 100% toilet paper certainly seems like the best way to go until we can appreciate using leaves again...which I doubt will ever happen.

@whirnot - Following up on the septic system at your cabin I found the following on the web - seems you were very correct in your estimation that the water was returned to the ground in the immediate vicinity:

http://www.eco-nomic.com/indexsdd.htm

Evaporative Effect

Another myth concerning septic systems is that much of the septic effluent evaporates.

To develop a true estimate of the volume of return flow, an estimate of the evaporative effect must be included.

The design for a septic system where 100% of the water discharged from the system evaporates is the evapotranspiration system describedabove.   The design uses a plastic liner under the entire drainfield. This type of systems is allowed in areas of high evaporation only. In the semiarid climate of central Washington State, the required drainfield area of an ET system for a 3 bedroom house is about 4500 square feet.

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

OK, here is my question - cleanliness of the physical bidet system itself.  I'm serious and not trying to derail this conversation.

Say you have a guest with some intestinal, ah, issues.  The pipe is in a perfect location for a "deposit" - and not the kind you want. So - now what do you do?  Just figure that "sharing is caring" and when you use the bidet to clean yourself next time, you'll get a little of his deposit on your privates?  Put on some latex gloves and clean it off?  How? 

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but having cleaned my share of toilets and seen what happens to the interior of toilet bowls, this is the part of bidets that grosses me out. I'm interested in using them but these questions stop me.  Thanks for any info.

I don't know what the standard design for bidets is (if there is one), with mine the nozzle is located directly underneath the seat.  It would be exceedingly difficult to get any fecal meterial on the nozzle.  Even if you did, the nozzle is within a plastic casing and drops down when you turn the knob, so the fecal material wouldn't get on the nozzle itself.  As for cleaning, you would clean it the same way you normally clean a toilet bowl.

Again, not trying to be argumentative, but fecal matter can go anywhere, and I do mean anywhere, in a toilet bowl, especially if someone either has a minor bug, a little gas, or has simply eaten too many cherries. They don't have to be sick, just a bit on the loose or slightly explosive side, and suddenly things change from the equivalent of dropping a marble straight down to acting more like a lawn sprayer.  In another lifetime, I spent approximately 3 years as a hotel maid, and trust me, if it hasn't happened to your bidet yet, it will. It is not always something you spot immediately unless you're looking closely.

Since studies have shown that merely flushing the toilet can aerosolize the contents and distribute them around your bathroom (which is why it turns out it is not a good idea to leave your toothbrush laying on the counter), please someone persuade me that I'm not sharing other people's waste products by using a bidet. Seriously, anyone have answers?

Like I said, the nozzle is covered until you use it.  It's no more of a problem than a toilet without a bidet.

Agreed Dana - and like you say, it would take a bit of a contortionist to get fecal matter on the bidet pipe.

At home I don't feel it is much of a problem - in a public loo it could be a different story as Ellen points out.

After some of the public loos I used when living in India I have trouble being vey concerned with mine at home which happens to be spotless. One at the train station in Surat must have been cleaned at least once and probably no less than 50 years past! Still, once in an emergency I did have to use it - only once in 15 years though.

Hi - could you give me the Turkish manufacturer name of the toilet you show pic's of?

Cheers

Hi Aine, Welcome to the Eco Huddle!

The manufacturer is Vitra and web site is  www.vitra.com.tr  

They have literature in English as well as Turkish on their site.

Regards,
Russ

The ultimate bathroom retreat is not complete without a bidet or better yet....a hand bathroom bidet sprayer. The hand sprayer gives you superior control and water volume and if the bathroom was not designed to allow for a bidet(the majority of them) it offers the convenience of installation on the existing toilet AND you don't have to get up and move every time! You will pay for it many times over in toilet paper savings which also makes this a very green thing to do. Available at www.bathroomsprayers.com. 

You're kidding, right, Jeff? You actually believe this piece of a car wash is BETTER than a real bidet? How so? (I'm going in never-never land, now.)  I'm trying to visualize how it might be used in a way that, er, preserves the dignity of the user. If one tilts one's body to the left (the opposite side from where the water source is --- to avoid the hose dragging across your bare legs) I guess you are to reach down into the bowl with the gun in hand and take a shot. Since you can't see there, it seems unlikely the first pull of the trigger is going to score a bulls eye. And to keep the bulls eye from being your eye, better clamp your legs together or squint hard.

 

So your body goes into servo mode (like steering a car around a corner) and by feel, with each successive shot you get closer to target. Meanwhile, you're wasting water (very un-green), soaking your entire bottom (more TP to dry, also very un-green), and based upon the law of gravity, dirtying your gun hand. This probably wouldn't last long, however, at least where I live, as you would quickly use up the air temperature water in the hose and be greeted with the new, 53 degree water fresh from the well. 

 

An alternative position might be to raise yourself into a squatting (sort of third-world like) posture with one foot on each side of the toilet seat. While this would allow greater accessibility and accuracy, I would be concerned about overspray on the walls, as well as falling off --- or in. Probably not a good idea for the elderly.

 

I dunno... I think I'll keep my Toto, wireless, remote controlled, on demand heated water, variable pressure, microprocessor controlled heated seat, variable position, retractable nozzle, carbon filtered deodorizer, warmed air butt-dryer bidet seat--- but thanks for the info on a new idea in personal sanitation.

 

(More later on the difference between expenditure and conservation of resources.)

 

 

And if it's not kept spotlessly clean? Bacteria and who knows what else rinsing your behind?

There are tp companies that are eco-friendly. 

The bidet nozzle is only exposed when it's turned on, at least with my model.  And it's easy to clean.

Use tree free toilet paper...100% bamboo. www.bumbooosa.com

uses a thermo mechanical pulping method. The best choice if you don't have a bidet.

Especially because 100% recycled content toilet paper contains BPAs from the recycling process.

 

Well, I don't mean to be gross but a couple of notes:

 

The biggest source of bacteria around your behind is your... behind. Let's face it the thing spews bateria-laden filth several times a day. The main thing you should be worrying about is cleaning your behind effectively. Wiping a bunch of dry paper around is not going to clean your behind very well. A good rinse with water will do a lot more to remove the fecal matter and bacteria. Of course you want to keep your bidet clean. But I worry a lot less about the bidet infecting me than I worry about just dabbing at my behind with some paper and then walking around for the rest of the day. 

Ok, I don't have a bidet but with my limited use of them at various places my #1 problem was the cold water. If you have one of these with a heater option, don't you still have to run it for awhile for the warm water to arrive?

Okay, don't know that this still answers the question.

 

The implication is that there is just far less water consumed by the use of a bidet, versus toilet paper. But, you still have to dry, post bidet use. So that means either toilet paper or a towel. There is no way that re-using a cloth towel to wipe remnants of fecal matter away is hygienic, which means toilet paper. So you're still having to wipe with toilet paper. The implication is that you will use less tp to dry, than you would to wipe, but that seems moderately questionable to me. I wouldn't want a wet bum, so would wipe until it it thoroughly dry (which would also serve to counteract some of the supposed "health benefits" of using a bidet, ie that it's softer on your behind). To do otherwise would also be unhygienic, since you don't want the dirtiest place on your body moist, as that is where bacteria likes to grow.

 

So, you have if not the same water usage as a normal toilet flushing (accounting for the bidet water and flushing with a reduced quantity of water), possibly slightly less. But then you are still using tp. Perhaps you are using half as much tp, but you're still using it. There will likely be a negligible increase in your energy consumption (to power the bidet), and a more significant one if you get a heated one, or an air-drying one, or even worse, heated and air-drying. So basically, if you use only cold water, and still use tp, it might be slightly better, but it doesn't seem much better.

 

And I'm still not convinced that spraying fecal matter potentially further around your posterior is a good idea.

 

And if you get a deluxe bidet, I sincerely doubt you are doing the environment any benefits, given the increased energy consumption. Maybe if you use solar power for your bathroom water heating, but then you have to factor in the environmental impact of manufacturing solar panels and transporting them (rare earths, lots of chemicals, the actual physical construction, etc).

 It is truly impressive how verbose some people(GPBobby) can get over something they have never tried and know nothing about. It is pointless to try and convince someone like you because you already know it all, without even trying it...amazing. I have tried it, for years, and the hand bidet sprayer is the best item for personal hygiene since the toilet. But you might want to stay away from it because you could probably find a way to spray your walls.

 

Edited by Jeff9 - 7/14/12 at 11:14pm

That is one of the many reasons I prefer a hand bidet sprayer to a bidet = you hold it in your hand at an angle and it has a strong water flow so you don't get contaminants on the sprayer nozzle itself. I'm afraid you'll have to take my word on this, I've been using one for years. Second, if you want to you can clean the nozzle off quite easily to make sure it's clean. I don't worry that the faucet or shower has contaminants from people washing their hands and the hand bidet sprayer is much the same.

You are not convinced about spraying "fecal material" around with a Hand Bidet but the simple reality for all your analysis is you've never used one and point in fact do not know what you are talking about. This is the common response from people with limited experience and resistance to trying something new. Plus so many people secretly think that if they do embrace a new approach then it means they they have been using something inferior and that this reflects badly on them. For the rest of us we like to try new things and when they work better rejoice in the added value to our lives. Bidet Sprayers Rock. Toilet Paper is a joke, and a dirty one at that. I know because I've experienced it. Cheers......