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Deniers and Wikipedia

post #1 of 7
Thread Starter 

Why does it seem like many deniers have a wikipedia education?  They seem to take bits and pieces from wikipedia, put them together and draw the completely wrong conclusion.  James E was especially bad at this.  His knowledge about pH was clearly derived from reading wikipedia.  It was clear he did not even really understand the definition of pH.  His reasoning

 

H2O + CO2 --> H2CO3--> HCO3- + H+ 

 

Since HCO3- in water raises the pH, then CO2 raises the pH of water.

 

A freshman chemistry course would have cleared this up.  But since he read this bits and pieces on wikipedia, he thinks he is right.

 

Now I am answering questions by NW Jack (who also goes by Portland Joe).  Almost as bad, but not nearly as obnoxious at James E ( not saying much there).  He arguments are all over the place.  He was trying to tell me that since clouds reflect visible light, they are responsible for less cooling at night.  I asked how this is possible and he goes into an explanation absorption of IR.  I have seen other ridiculous things from NW Jack like the atmosphere is a black body, since he read on wikipedia that all matter emits black body radiation.

 

Is wikipedia (and the internet) giving people the illusion that they understand something when they clearly do not.  Does the internet help or hurt science for those who have no training in science?

 

beren

post #2 of 7

Portland Joe/NW Jack love to put about 10 links into every one of their answers.  And they somehow manage to misunderstand/misinterpret every single one of those links every single time.

 

It's not just Wikipedia.  It's that deniers read everything with their denial-colored glasses on.  They're not trying to learn anything, they're trying to reaffirm their preconceived notions.  There was no better example of this than the stolen 'Climategate' emails which were grossly misinterpreted by denialists who read them with the preconceived notion that they must contain some kind of evidence of fraudulent practices.  Thus even though no such evidence existed in the emails, deniers managed to concoct some anyway through misinterpretation and quote mining.

 

Wikipedia and the internet in general do give people easy access to basic information, which in some cases probably gives people a false sense of understanding of a subject.  But unlike Portland Joe/NW Jack, most deniers don't even do this sort of cursory research.  Just look at jim z, whose every answer is "it's just a magical natural cycle.  Trust me, I'm a geologist.  Anyone who disagrees is a leftist."

 

I'm not sure which is worse - refusing to do any research, or doing a little research but constantly misinterpreting and misunderstanding it.  At least the latter is putting some effort forth, but then again, the dozens of links give them the facade of knowing what they're talking about.

post #3 of 7

My best window into life before the internet is my grandfather. He would never dare engage in a scientific debate at all. He is a really humble soul and a good person and I love him. But when he gets out of his depth in a conversation, he always reverts to a few old standbys:

 

1) "Oh I don't know anything about that." Very final. Counts him out of a lot of things, too. How would he vote on a climate change bill? He wouldn't. Science is for scientists.

 

2) "It's the fault of those big company men / the government." When something's wrong and he can't understand it, he looks to blame some shadowy network of 'people running things' and their conniving ways. He's not always wrong about this stuff, but he's not really concerned with being right either. It's just a way to end a conversation. "Well, what are you going to do? It's those boys in Warshington again."

 

3) "God." If you were to prove to him conclusively that the world was going to end tomorrow, he wouldn't have an opinion about it, because really, such things are in god's hands, right? Not to disrespect anyone's religion, but this is just one more way to take yourself out of the conversation completely.

 

So when you take that and compare it to struggling with a lousy understanding of science, I'm not sure which is worse. I think more people are out there wielding lousy science than ever before, in part because of online resources. But certainly, more people have a better grasp than before, for the same reason.

 

I think I'd keep the Internet, and the greater number of folks with greater knowledge than before. Even if it also means that we now have more dim-witted cliff clavens out there ginned up on their own perceived knowledge. 

post #4 of 7
post #5 of 7
post #6 of 7

"Google Galileo".  Link below :)

post #7 of 7

Ugh yeah, it's incredibly annoying when global warming deniers try to compare themselves to Gallileo.  I just want to shake them and yell "you are the exact opposite of Gallileo!".  I've never heard that term 'Google Galileo' before, but it's a good one.  I like the Jenny McCarthy example too.

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