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Nissan LEAF EV

post #1 of 24
8/3/09 at 12:13pm
Thread Starter 


Nissan unveiled its EV yesterday, which will be called the LEAF.

Quote:
Nissan is confident that the LEAF will travel 100 miles on a charge. Charging time will vary from 16 hours (on a standard household plug) to 30 minutes (on a fancy 3-phase charging station).

The car goes on sale to select global markets and commercial fleets in late 2010. When it does, Nissan hopes to sell the car itself, but to lease the battery pack. While pricing is yet to be announced, Nissan CEO Carlos Ghosn told the crowd that the car without its battery will be "very competitive" with comparable internal combustion models. The monthly cost to lease the battery and fill it with electrons, he added, will be less than an average month of fill-ups at the gas station.

The battery leasing is an interesting method to keep the up-front cost down.  It will be interesting to see how much the car sells and battery leases for.

More photos available at Treehugger.
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post #2 of 24
8/3/09 at 9:09pm
I was reading on another site how they are cooking the books on mileage - not using the same methods as the EPA. If Darryl Siry is correct then shame on Nissan.

Nissan’s Leaf: Its First Big Mistake Out of the Blocks 
http://www.greentechmedia.com/green-light/post/nissan-leaf-its-first-big-mistake-out-of-the-blocks/

 
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post #3 of 24
8/3/09 at 9:36pm
Thread Starter 
Well it sounds like they're just using the most favorable possible EPA test method.
Quote:

Unfortunately, Nissan has upped the ante of exaggerating the realistic range of their vehicle by using the LA4 cycle as the single number they quote, which is the same as what we refer to as "EPA City", or "UDDS" driving cycle. As you can see below, this test cycle assumes an average driving speed of 19.59 mph and in the 22 minute driving cycle, it assumes you only break 40 mph once, for about 100 seconds, and never exceed about 58 mph.

{...}

CODA typically communicates the anticipated range of its vehicle by using two numbers, the US06 cycle on the low end (90 miles), and the UDDS cycle on the high end (120 miles). When the situation calls for a simpler sound bite, CODA has typically said "about 100 miles." For the purpose of comparison, CODA's battery capacity is currently 33.8 kWh, compared to Nissan's stated capacity of 24 kWh.

I agree with Daryl - I don't like it when EV manufacturers cite one number for the range and don't give specifics on how they got that number.  Generally you have to basically cut the manufacturer's estimates in half to get a real world range on an EV, and that's going to disappoint a lot of new buyers.

In Nissan's case, why cite the range under a method where the car averages 20 mph?  You're never going to be driving 20 mph for 100 miles and 5 hours!  That's totally unrealistic.  I'm sure they use it because they think 100 miles sounds like a nice round number, a lot better than say 60-70 miles.  But in the end while you might sell a few more cars up-front, you'll also have a lot of dissatisifed customers when they find out they can't really go 100 miles.
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post #4 of 24
8/3/09 at 10:32pm
It comes down to the point that honesty is the best policy - especially when it is almost certain someone will point out the error. Too often companies forget that. Not only being honest but being transparent is rather important long term.

I like the car and hope it does well. It is just that in the rush to announce there are so many details they have yet to answer - final cost is one of those. This kind of stuff you might expect from the new companies but the big boys like Nissan should not make such screwups.

 
Edited by Russ - 8/4/2009 at 12:41 pm GMT
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post #5 of 24
8/4/09 at 11:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ View Post

It comes down to the point that honesty is the best policy - especially when it is almost certain someone will point out the error. Too often companies forget that. Not only being honest but being transparent is rather important long term.

I definitely agree on that front.  Nissan should learn lessons from even....Toyota!  Remember how much flack they got when some Prius and Camry hybrid drivers started pointing out the fact that they weren't getting the advertised mileage in real world driving conditions?

At the end of the day, we as consumers do need to remember that those estimated mileages are just that...estimated.  But I think the manufacturers have to play their part too and be as honest as possible.  Setting appropriate expectations is huge.  Sure, you have to sell the product.  But if it hurts your case in the long run and hurts adoption of your product (or EVs in general), that's for sure not good.
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post #6 of 24
8/4/09 at 12:33pm
Thread Starter 
Yeah I remember Toyota was touting the EPA estimated 63 mpg on the Prius, but the real world efficiency is around 50 mpg.  So people were basically calling them liars, although they were just reporting the EPA estimate.  But it turned into "it only gets 50 mpg" instead of "wow it gets 50 mpg!".  Really that was more the EPA's fault than Toyota's, but they did make a big deal about it.

Fortunately the EPA updated their testing methods to make them more accurate, but now they need a more uniform method for testing EV ranges.  No doubt people expecting 100 miles per charge from the LEAF will be saying "it only goes 65 miles".
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post #7 of 24
8/4/09 at 9:53pm
Right Dana - It would be preferable to hear, "Wow, I get 65 mpg", rather than complaints though.

Like was pointed out - that should be preferable from the automakers standpoint as well. 
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post #8 of 24
8/5/09 at 9:05am
Really impressive reporting on the Leaf available on the net!  Almost all of it copied from the Nissan site with each persons own twists.

I am looking forward to someone reporting the infrastructure required for quick charging. For that matter, the infrastructure required, in the near future, to support electric cars when they become more than a novelty. 
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post #9 of 24
8/11/09 at 9:59am
Another case in the news today of a company using (misusing) the rules to try to look good -

GM and the 230 mpg Volt - of course you have to drive it almost entirely using the battery and they don't count electrical consumption. To me they should list/compare the total carbon footprint and call it good. That should be impressive by itself.

Maybe I just don't understand marketing!
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post #10 of 24
8/11/09 at 10:10am
Thread Starter 
The tricky part about the carbon footprint is that it's dependent on where you're getting your electricity.  In California it's much different than Wyoming, for example.

But 230 mpg is a load of hooey.  They should just say it's all electric for the first 40 miles and 50 mpg after, and leave it at that.
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post #11 of 24
8/12/09 at 3:13pm
Thread Starter 
Turns out the EPA hasn't even finalized its plug-in hybrid testing method yet.  GM jumped the gun on this one.

Quote:

The EPA, in fact, won't back up GM's number. Instead, the agency released a statement reading, "EPA has not tested a Chevy Volt and therefore cannot confirm the fuel economy values claimed by GM," though they added, "EPA does applaud GM's commitment to designing and building the car of the future."

 

To illustrate this point, Nissan quickly followed GM's announcement with its own, claiming the upcoming 2010 Nissan Leaf electric car will earn a 367 mpg EPA rating. The rules, it seems, can generate a miles-per-gallon rating for a car that doesn't even use gasoline.



Quote:

The EPA's tentative EREV testing process won't actually measure gasoline usage. Instead, it rates vehicles in kilowatt hours per 100 miles, then converts that measurement to miles per gallon. Effectively, the testing procedure doesn't give an mpg rating. It merely shows that a vehicle will use energy that equates to a certain mpg rating.


Ecogeek also has a good article on the subject asking is 230 mpg BS?
Edited by dana1981 - 8/12/09 at 3:25pm
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post #12 of 24
8/12/09 at 9:37pm
Nissan with the Leaf has now struck back at GM making even more outlandish claims.

I wonder if these guys sit around in little rooms trying to think of the most dumb thing to claim? 
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post #13 of 24
8/13/09 at 10:09am
Thread Starter 
No more outlandish, but equally outlandish.  What Nissan did was take the same draft EPA method GM used to calculate the 230 mpg rating for the Volt and applied it to the LEAF.  I think they found it would be rated at 320 mpg.  But it's the same thing - just a draft EPA method which hasn't been finalized.

I'd definitely prefer if all companies would wait until the method has been finalized before reporting these mileage estimates.  But Nissan was just trying to counteract all the publicity on the Volt's estimate by getting a similar one for the LEAF.
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post #14 of 24
8/15/09 at 1:11am
Info, video & pictures

From Nissan's twitter Q&A: 
  • Range is 100 miles in standard driving conditions – some highway, some city
  • Targeted top speed of 90MPH
  • Price will be in the range of a typical family sedan
  • Recharge rate is ~13MPH from 220/240V outlet (8 hour for full charge)
  • No published 0-60 time yet, but Nissan claims it accelerates like a V6
  • 90 kW lithium-ion battery pack
  • 80 kW electric motor with 280 Nm (equal to 107 HP and 206 lb-ft of Torque)
  • Buy/lease of battery pack is not finalized
  • Even in its dirtiest form, the grid is 60% cleaner than gas and it will get cleaner over time
  • Comfortably seats 5 adults with a wheelbase of over 106 inches
  • Innovative "connected car" features
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post #15 of 24
1/7/10 at 6:23am

A good look at the Leaf from wired.com - interesting pictures and description and a quote from Ghosn that indicates he doesn't get it as far as most folks go “In our system, you don’t own the battery. You lease it,” Ghosn said. “The cost to lease the battery and provide the energy will be less than the cost of your gasoline.” İf it costs the same as buying gasoline he can keep it and İ will look elsewhere!

Read More http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/01/nissan-leaf/3/#ixzz0bw9UrQyv

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/01/nissan-leaf/
 
Edited by Russ - 1/7/10 at 6:36am
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post #16 of 24
1/7/10 at 9:50pm
I purchased a Nissan Versa last spring and have become a Nissan convert. Here is Ontario Canada much of our power comes from hydro, and nuclear with wind gaining ground so this indeed looks like a great green option. However, from the above stats it states "Range is 100 miles in standard driving conditions – some highway, some city", but what I would like to know living in a Canadian climate, what does the heater do to the range?  I love the car but I'm not as passionate about hypothermia.
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post #17 of 24
1/7/10 at 11:03pm
Hi Gwens,

Haven't read anything about that but will be keeping my eyes open. 
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post #18 of 24
1/8/10 at 3:14pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwens View Post

However, from the above stats it states "Range is 100 miles in standard driving conditions – some highway, some city", but what I would like to know living in a Canadian climate, what does the heater do to the range?  I love the car but I'm not as passionate about hypothermia.


I think the heater uses a relatively minimal amount of energy.  However, batteries don't perform as well in cold climates, and the range becomes more limited.  That being said, it's much more of a problem with lead acid batteries than lithium ion.

Realistically, I'd expect closer to 50 mile per charge range with the LEAF in cold conditions.
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post #19 of 24
1/8/10 at 6:34pm
Actually, the heater can use quite a bit of energy. Depending on how much you use it, you can decrease your range by ~20%. That is one of the reasons that they have the mobile app to allow you to pre-heat the car while it is still plugged in. 

Going back to the original topic of leasing the battery. It looks like Nissan is running into legal hurdles and may not be able to split car from the battery in the US. Meaning that they would either both need to be leased or both sold. At this time, Nissan does not want to sell any of the batteries, so it may be that the only way to get a Leaf in the US is to lease it. BMW's electric mini were lease only also.
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post #20 of 24
1/8/10 at 9:05pm
 Problems in the US?  Somehow, that is no surprise!  With Nissan/Renault charging station plan in California, I wonder if those hurdles will affect that plan also.

BMW's Mini E is surprising a few drivers.  They are not like gas cars spurting a few miles on Empty.  When they run out of juice- that is IT! Several had to be towed I believe. Might have a few drivers relieved to get out from under those leases!
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post #21 of 24
1/23/10 at 10:05am
 That's a bit of a shame about the up-selling tactics on the fuel economy ratings, but I'm still pretty keen on purchasing one.  There was a big press conference here in Seattle back in the Fall.  Here is my write up on it and a video from my test drive.  Unfortunately the actual LEAF was show only and they used a Versa body for their driving vehicle, but with all the LEAF electronics.

http://www.carboncontest.com/green-articles/59-green-events/79-test-drive-of-the-nissan-leaf-ev

I thought the acceleration and handling was quite good and with nearly 1,000 charging stations to be installed in Seattle, it shouldn't be too hard to keep the batteries full.  

After reading the above comments about the decreased driving range, I checked Google Maps and found that the farthest of my semi-regular drives was about 66 miles so that sounds like it might be pushing it, or rather that I might be pushing it. :)
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post #22 of 24
2/24/10 at 7:14pm
Hi.
I am using a electric vehicle and it charging cost is going out of my budget by every month so by searching a lot on internet i came through this website (edited to remove link - Russ) is this website really helps in saving power while charging electric vehicles?
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post #23 of 24
2/24/10 at 8:59pm
The thing will not save you one kW on charging your car. The product is a wireless control and monitoring system - nothing really new.

İf İ were to buy something like this İ would go for an established brand such as plugwise. At least you can be more certain they will be around next week/year. 

Such a system should allow you to set the charging times for your car to make use of the cheapest rates. An old fashioned timer would do the same thing for probably a percent of the price and probably a percent of the troubles. 
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post #24 of 24
3/2/10 at 10:32am
Now that's a sleek car. I like it.

Thanks for sharing

Jess
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