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Snake thermometry discussion in Nature

post #1 of 7
7/30/09 at 11:52am
Thread Starter 
Long discussion in Nature about the accuracy of using giant snakes as paleo thermometers.  Interesting reading ...

Biased reptilian palaeothermometer? ppE1-E2
J. M. Kale Sniderman
doi:10.1038/nature08222
Abstract:
Article:

Re-calibrating the snake palaeothermometer ppE2-E3
Anastassia M. Makarieva, Victor G. Gorshkov and Bai-Lian Li
doi:10.1038/nature08223
Abstract:
Article:

Can the giant snake predict palaeoclimate? ppE3-E4
Mark W. Denny, Brent L. Lockwood and George N. Somero
doi:10.1038/nature08224
Abstract:
Article:

Head et al. reply ppE4-E5
Jason J. Head et al.
doi:10.1038/nature08225
Abstract:
Article:
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post #2 of 7
7/30/09 at 1:33pm
From the third paper: 
Quote:
However, the relationship on which Head et al.1 base their conclusion does not account for the scope of behavioural control over body temperature available to Titanoboa due to its huge mass. Our calculations suggest that because of its ability to behaviourally control its body temperature, Titanoboa cannot serve as an accurate palaeothermometer.

Since when can reptiles control their own body temperature? Or are they just saying that a larger snake would bask in the sun more often? 
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post #3 of 7
7/30/09 at 4:17pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dawei View Post

From the third paper: 


Since when can reptiles control their own body temperature? Or are they just saying that a larger snake would bask in the sun more often? 
 

They suggest a larger snake can cool itself off by uncoiling more often.  Or something like that.  So it wouldn't need to be as warm because a big snake could keep itself warm by coiling and preserving heat.  Or something like that anyway. 
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post #4 of 7
7/30/09 at 10:56pm
Then why don't all snakes just get as big as they can? I've been keeping snakes for 10 years, and every species I've ever known has known how to coil itself up...

I don't know, it just seems the fact that we happened to find a fossil of a snake from that time period, and it happened to be massively large, suggests that massively large reptiles were very common at that time. And I really don't see a good evolutionary reason for why behavioral patterns would change since then. It's not like it's a disadvantage to be big.
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post #5 of 7
7/31/09 at 6:36am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dawei View Post

Then why don't all snakes just get as big as they can? I've been keeping snakes for 10 years, and every species I've ever known has known how to coil itself up...

I don't know, it just seems the fact that we happened to find a fossil of a snake from that time period, and it happened to be massively large, suggests that massively large reptiles were very common at that time. And I really don't see a good evolutionary reason for why behavioral patterns would change since then. It's not like it's a disadvantage to be big.
 

Head et al. make this point in their rebuttal, that behavior isn't sufficient to explain size. 

What kind of snake do you own?  I read a story a long time ago that a mongoose's reputation as a snake killer is enhanced because the cobra is a particularly slow-striking snake.  If a mongoose tries to attack a rattlesnake, for instance, the snake nearly always wins since a rattlesnake is much faster than a cobra.  My personal all-time favorite snake is the boomslang, because of its role in the untimely demise of noted herpetologist Karl Schmidt. 
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post #6 of 7
7/31/09 at 9:56am
Boomslangs are mean mothers. I just have a little mexican black kingsnake right now (very stupid snake), but have kept lots of corns, rats, black racers, watersnakes...pretty much all of the florida snakes including a few cottonmouths. Though I never keep any wild caught snake for more than about a week or so.

I don't think anything could touch a rattlesnake that is coiled up and ready. I wouldn't touch one with anything less than a 3 foot snake hook, and even then I'd feel pretty nervous trying to pin and grab him. That's why I like cottonmouths, they're slow and fat.

Anyway what do you think about all of these challenges to using ancient snakes to tell the temperature? 
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post #7 of 7
7/31/09 at 1:57pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dawei View Post

Boomslangs are mean mothers. I just have a little mexican black kingsnake right now (very stupid snake), but have kept lots of corns, rats, black racers, watersnakes...pretty much all of the florida snakes including a few cottonmouths. Though I never keep any wild caught snake for more than about a week or so.

I don't think anything could touch a rattlesnake that is coiled up and ready. I wouldn't touch one with anything less than a 3 foot snake hook, and even then I'd feel pretty nervous trying to pin and grab him. That's why I like cottonmouths, they're slow and fat.

Anyway what do you think about all of these challenges to using ancient snakes to tell the temperature? 

You've kept cottonmouths as pets?  Gnarly.

I think the response of Head et al. is pretty good, that even if the criticisms are valid they don't make a lot of difference.  The size of titanoboa still means it was a lot warmer in the tropics than deduced from leaf stoma. 

This next part is an educated guess, meaning it's probably wrong, but I think the snake results are likely correct.  This is because it supports the prediction from the physics that the equator should be warmer than the leaf stoma temperature proxy data indicate.  I tend to think the physics of climate are fairly well understood, and if the climate physicists can't explain how you can have very warm poles without very warm tropics, then there is something wrong with the data indicating moderate temperatures in the tropics (in this case the leaf stoma temperature proxies). 

Put simply, if a new measurement can explain an existing inconsistency in the physics, it is more likely than not that the new measurement is correct.  The current objections are pretty standard and observed whenever someone comes up with a new idea. 

But that is a guess, I don't have much of a background in biology. 
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