Green Options › Forums › Climate Change › Science › Paleo tropical temperatures and climate modeling
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Paleo tropical temperatures and climate modeling

post #1 of 11
Thread Starter 

A very large conundrum in climate modeling appears to have been resolved.  Details here:

 

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v457/n7230/full/457669a.html

 

Of course, skeptics will argue that once again, scientists have adjusted data to fit the models.  But the point is that if models are incorporating physics correctly, there is enough experience with them now that if the data and models disagree, it is wise to look for problems in the data first. 

post #2 of 11

no sub. is that this?

interesting. that's backing up the models isnt it? i cant remember exactly but something like the tropics would have to be unfeasably hot to get the poles as hot as they obviously were?

 

10 degrees hotter than today eh? in a way thats encouraging, for the future of the amazon rainforest, if there was forest there at those temps.

post #3 of 11

That's a freaking big snake.

 

So what's the very large conundrum in climate modeling that this resolved?

post #4 of 11

Oh my word!  I'm eager to hear what the climate conundrum is...but that snake is HUGE!

 

"The snake that tried to eat Jennifer Lopez in the movie 'Anaconda' is not as big as the one we found."  - hahaha, yikes.  42-45 feet is nuts.

post #5 of 11
Thread Starter 

Argh!  I forgot the Nature link wouldn't work. 

The conundrum relates to paleoclimate simulations and time periods when the arctic was sub-tropical.  Under that climate regime, models predict that the tropical temperatures were on average 10-15 C warmer than today (since the equatorial-pole temperature gradient remains roughly the same as today).  However, available temperature proxies (mostly involving leaf size) indicate that equatorial tropical temperatures were not a whole lot larger than today, maybe a couple of degrees celsius.  This led climate modelers to assume that something was missing from the physics of the models that would regulate temperature in the tropics, preventing it from getting so hot.  Likely candidates were deep convection and cloud formation (Sound familiar?  Lindzen wasn't really a genius, he just picked up on known issues with modeling heat transfer in the tropics and amplified the uncertainty) but the modelers and climate dynamicists just weren't sure how to do a better job, or what precisely was missing in the physics. 

Anyway, the existence of the huge freaking snake (HFS, thanks Dana!) gives a second temperature proxy for that era (no, I didn't know this before I read the article, biologist I am not).  It turns out snake size correlates with environmental temperature, since it is easier to keep a larger body warm enough in a hotter climate.  If you develop a relationship between snake size and temperature, and plot the HFS on that curve, the predicted environmental temperature comes out to be around 10 C warmer than the tropics are today.  In other words, if the HFS was really that big and snake size is a good proxy for temperature, the models are actually doing a reasonable job both at high latitudes and in the tropics.  This implies the parameterizations of deep convection and tropical clouds are not so bad. 

Unfortunately, it's just one more reason why reducing CO2 is a really good idea. 

 

<sigh>  I could have saved myself some time and just said:  "Exactly Gerda." 

 


Edited by gcnp58 - Thu, 05 Feb 2009 07:34:01 GMT
post #6 of 11

Well now I wonder which is a more accurate temperature proxy - leaf size, or huge freaking snake size?

post #7 of 11
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dana1981:

Well now I wonder which is a more accurate temperature proxy - leaf size, or huge freaking snake size?

 

Beats me.  Both methods were published in very respectable journals (Phil Trans. Royal Soc. B for the snake work, for example).  I would bet on the snakes, but that's just because my opinion is that the models are not that bad. 

 

As a general rule of thumb in research, before you start invoking new physics to explain an anomalous result, it's always a good idea to check the data one more time. 

 


Edited by gcnp58 - Fri, 06 Feb 2009 06:41:23 GMT
post #8 of 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by gcnp58:

As a general rule of thumb in research, before you start invoking new physics to explain an anomalous result, it's always a good idea to check the data one more time. 

 

 

You mean like if your data analysis shows the atmosphere is cooling when all other evidence indicates it should be/is warming?  Or like the apparently absent tropical troposphere hot spot?

 

If we did that, then it would be much harder to deny anthropogenic global warming.  To hell with that!

post #9 of 11
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dana1981:
Quote:
Originally Posted by gcnp58:

As a general rule of thumb in research, before you start invoking new physics to explain an anomalous result, it's always a good idea to check the data one more time. 

 

 

You mean like if your data analysis shows the atmosphere is cooling when all other evidence indicates it should be/is warming?  Or like the apparently absent tropical troposphere hot spot?

 

If we did that, then it would be much harder to deny anthropogenic global warming.  To hell with that!

 

Hey smart guy, stop reading my mind.  :-)

 

Yeah, precisely!  Once you decide to start invoking new physics before rigorously checking your own data, you have ceased being a scientist. 

 

Another great example of this is Pons and Fleischman and cold fusion.  Tens of millions of dollars in research funding and hundreds of man-years of effort have been squandered proving that Pons and Fleischman didn't do a very good job of verifying their own results. 

post #10 of 11

I just realized the fossils are at the Florida Museum of Natural History--about ten minutes from my house--so I'll try to get a peak and snap some pictures if you guys are interested.


Edited by dawei - Sun, 08 Feb 2009 19:47:42 GMT
post #11 of 11

Totally - post 'em here!

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Science
Green Options › Forums › Climate Change › Science › Paleo tropical temperatures and climate modeling