Would you rather drive a biodiesel, hybrid, electric, or hydrogen car?

So...this isn't exactly a debate question per se.  But ah well.

Featured Poll/Debate 23

If money were no object, would you rather drive a biodiesel, hybrid, electric, or hydrogen fuel-cell car?  And more importantly...why?

Hey, that's a spec-freaking-tacular topic!  It's a little tricky though, because it depends if you mean right now, in the near future, or in the more distant future.

Right now it's gotta be a hybrid because there just aren't any good affordable EVs available quite yet, and not many good sources of biodiesel.

In the near and more distant future, electrics and biodiesels become the best choices.  Electric vehicles are my favorite because electric motors are so efficient (and I'm all about efficiency).  Plus you can make them as green as you want by using renewable energy to recharge them.  Theoretically an EV recharged by solar panels and/or wind turbines is 100% emissions free.

The issue with biodiesel is where to get the biofuel on a large scale without requiring large amounts of agricultural land.  The best solution to this problem appears to be algae oil.   Once we get large scale production of algae biofuels, I think biodiesels will be a great option.  In fact, algae oil is actually carbon negative!  Unfortunately it looks like large scale production of algae oil is something like a decade away.

Then there's hydrogen.  I left it out because I think there are some serious fundamental flaws with hydrogen cars.  The bottom line is that currently we have to use electricity to extract hydrogen from some kind of source (and on top of that, 96% of our hydrogen currently comes from fossil fuels).  Using the electricity that way is inherently less efficient than using it to charge a battery and run an electric motor directly.  Plus there's the complete lack of infrastructure for hydrogen transportation and storage, and the danger of driving around with a tank of hydrogen gas.

The one potential solution I could see is the technology of getting hydrogen by combining aluminum alloys and water works out on a large scale (discussed in the hydrogen cars link above).  If it can be made affordable and practical, that could make hydrogen cars a viable option, but it's probably at least a few decades away.

If money were no object, then I could afford gas for my current car ;)

I'd probably take the electric though. Come on ultra-capacitors! *fingers crossed*

Electric, that's assuming it comes with a solar or wind system to power it.  I'm not a big fan of moving emissions from gasoline to coal, though I have heard that a coal-powered electric car releases less carbon than a comparable gas-powered one.  Anyone know?

You heard correct.  This is discussed in the Electric Vehicles wiki.  See the 'Environmental Impact' section.

Gotta agree, electric is the way to go.  Charging at home is fine because I get 100% wind power (Clean Currents in MD).  I did see this which was very interesting - http://youtube.com/watch?v=IiOTO9NBU6o

Jim

Water powered cars will never work.

That water powered car has kinda been proven to be a PR stunt - not viable. 

My choice would be electric, and  "Insert Stins comments here".   LOL  -  but basically she pretty much summed it up very well. 

My additional comments would be that with electric - if the technology to make a good EV is available, lets do it!  The grid will catch up probably several years after that as more grid level renewable energy systems come on line.  I stick to the concept of it is far easier to clean up a few hundred power plants than 200 million tail pipes...  So, let the cars start going hybrid, PHEV, EV, etc. - the grid will catch up eventually... but don't wait for the grid, or we will never get there!

The latest info about fuel cell / hydrogen cars is far more positive than I thought it would be.  Basically the issues are down to hydrogen sources, infrastructure, and vehicle cost... which each, I admit, are kinda show-stoppers - but issues like hydrogen storage (in vehicle), appropriate vehicle style, fueling, and if a FC will work at all in a vehicle, have been accomplished.  ...so, maybe one day, but it will be some time before they are ready for market. 

Hmmm stins didn't make any comments....

ELECTRIC CARS INTERFERE WITH THE ENERGY FREQUENCY/ELECTRO MAGNETIC FIELDS IN THE BODY. SO ALTHOUGH THEY MAY BE GOOD FOR THE ENRVIRONMENT ON ONE HAND, THEY  AREN'T

Got any links to studies backing up this claim?

Yeah no offense, but that sounds like a load of hooey to me.

Though your use of all caps does increase your credibility... :p

My Audi is paid for, and I intend to keep it until I replace it with an all-electric one. I make enough to be able to afford super unleaded even at $8/gal, but I still telecommute most of the time to cut down on driving.

I'm hoping Tesla+EEStor supercaps @ $40K sometime in the next three years ;)

The question needs to be answered in two ways: A:  What would you rather drive, and B: what can you actually drive right now.  

For me, I would rather drive an electric car that physically drove and acted like a standard VW Jetta.  The handling, the features, the safety, the sheer positivity of that car is unparalled for something I need to do every other day in order to make a living.  Electric motors powered by renewable energy are superior in terms of total efficiency.  However:

The car I want to drive theoretically and the car I can currently drive are different here in the USA.  Turns out the LA Auto show rated the new TDI Jetta (diesel) tops in green cars.  It's a diesel, could run on biodiesel (waste grease stock), and drives like a dream.  No need to wait, no battery issues, and recycles waste grease that would fill up a landfill otherwise. 

Hybrids come in a close 2nd, but still use war-tainted petroleum to run unless you retrofit the thing for an extra $10,000.  Still, even at $30k, it's what we have to do if we absolutely need that kind of size, gusto and form factor.  A normal station wagon that happens to be a hybrid would be superior, I don't need a hatchback so much as a wagon, and I don't need a mini-SUV either.

Full electrics are just not ready en masse for prime time.  My sister drives a Zenn, and her batteries had to be replaced ($$$), it can't truly seat more than 2 adults (new kid on the way won't fit with baby seat), and she has to charge it up all the time, often at other people's houses (inconvenient).

Fuel Cell and Hydrogen cars are not remotely available, won't be viable for at least 3-5 years in full production, and are still dodgy in my mind regarding fuel extraction.  Not even on the table in this discussion.

If you're going to combust, do it with waste grease in a diesel car, or the upcoming algae.  If you're going hybrid, make sure the size car fits your needs and consider battery upgrades in the near future.  If you're going electric, it's likely going to be useful only in a small-run capacity as a second car.  Unless you change your lifestyle to hyper-local and have only 2 people in your household, it's going to be a stretch.  If you're going fuel cell or hydrogen, you must by nature be the governor of California....

Great question, no matter how you slice it, vehicles are one of the most direct ways we can harm or help the environment every single time we drive (or don't!).

Aaron Campbell

Campbell Energy LLC

glowplug@comcast.net

It could very well be that there will be a breakthough in battery technologies allowing the consumer to enjoy range , speed , reasonable charging time , etc .

In the meantime there's a more practical alternative , " Hydrogen Assist Fuel Cell " - http://www.minimizefuelprice.com which 8,000+ units have already been placed in service and averaging 95% improvement in gasoline economy without sacrificing speeds , range convienience , safety etc . How many people can afford to simply junk their existing vehicle and purchase a new EV ?

What do you think of the possibility of a diesel-hybrid?  I'm not really sure where the technology stands right now, but it seems like it could be one more step in the right direction toward efficiency (assuming you could run it with waste grease and renewable energy).

VW was going to make a diesel-electric hybrid Golf, but nixed the project, deciding it would be too expensive.

Mercedes is working on a 40 mpg diesel-electric hybrid SUV.

I think the main problem is that to get diesel engines to pass US emissions tests, companies need to add quite a bit of technology which tends to make them rather expensive.  Add in the hybrid technology, and it gets even more pricey.  So I guess Mercedes can pull it off, because they already have expensive cars, but I can see why it would be more difficult for VW.

Electric is what I would rather drive and what I DO drive now.

@future4u, sounds like an advert but I'll bite.  I have heard of but not seen a $700 device that can be kluged onto a big-rig that uses the trucks alternator to split water into hydrogen and oxygen, and inject that hydrogen into the existing combustion cycle.  This apparently results in much higher mileage and overall efficiencies.  Fuel cells still sound expensive and resource intensive, but I'd like to see some independent verification on that "95% improvement in gasoline economy without sacrificing speeds, range, convenience, safety" quote.

@jessg, I am aware that a few manufacturers already have hybrid-diesels in production in Europe, but as mentioned by @dana1981, it's really a pricey endeavor at the moment.  50-state US compliance is expensive, batteries and extra motors are expensive. Still, diesel-hybrids are a good way to get a bunch more miles out of a tank of fuel, but the ideal remains full electric.  Eliminating ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) vehicles can be done with willpower and passion since the engineering is already done. 

I am personally sticking with my biodiesel TDI until I can get a reasonably priced electric wagon. It's not optimal (not waste grease direct, still combusting) but the alternative won't work with my work, money, and family situation at the moment.  The trick is doing as much as you can at every stage.  After selling cars at VW for 2 years and I can tell you that they are a good company. Sadly they are still profit-first and that means they are not likely to give us enough high-mileage cars until they can be assured of really high profits and lots of sales.  They have those already in the TDI, but to bump up to an electric would be too risky in their minds.  I disagree, but I'm not on their board....

Lastly, a real holy grail would be retrofittable EV motors and drive trains that can be put into existing cars and run without hassles.  I'd gladly spend $10,000 to turn my current diesel MB wagon into an all-electric vehicle. 

Aaron

Campbell

Energy

glowplug@comcast.net

I am in favor of electric cars. Electric is more efficient in energy to motion conversion than the other methods. It also does not compete with food supplies as current biodiesel does.  Its also easier to change a centralized source of power over to a more sustainable green method. In the short term, we could switch to electric and still use oil and even coal power plants. Its easier to then switch those plants into green alternatives such as solar or even orbital solar power plants (I can dream eh?). This is much more viable than converting each and every gas station into biodiesel or hydrogen. The downside to this is the loss of many jobs as gas stations close.

As new technologies and innovation comes to alight, thats the way of the world. They'll be plenty new jobs w greener cars, research, technology. Stations with service  will have to learn the mechanics of the new cars and the training will have to change. That's will anything though.

Ultimately, I think the debate between battery-powered cars and hydrogen fuel cell powered cars is shortsighted and misguided. America needs both, and both technologies should be seen as complementary technologies, not competitive technologies. In fact a hydrogen fuel cell plug-in hybrid vehicle might just be the best fuel mileage vehicle for the future simply because it enables the most distributive energy grid imaginable.

** edited to remove link in violation of Commercial Use Policy

A hydrogen/electric hybrid is an interesting concept.  However, you're assuming that hydrogen fuel cell technology will become viable and cost-effective before battery technology solves its range and rechage time issues.  I just don't see that happening.

I could be wrong and I'm not saying it's a complete waste to research fuel cell technology, but I think it's very clear the primary focus should be electric cars.  And virtually all automakers agree on that.

The just announced Cadillac EV-

http://gm-volt.com/2009/01/11/cadillac-converj-extended-range-electric-vehicle/

my car still has a few years on it.

i think that electric would be the way to go.

i think that's the technology to be encouraged -- by spending money there.

i think that nuclear power is going to be far more popular in the near future, and reprocessing spent fuel rods will solve 90%+ of the disposal problem -- reducing both the amount of waste, and the length of time it will be a serious problem.

There will be new jobs, but I am concerned about the people who will not be retrained for those new jobs. We often see this problem when an older industry ends up in trouble (such as manufacturering). The average person ends up getting the short end because the company is not willing to retrain an older worker; instead, they just hire fresh new workers who are trained in a technology.

 Zap is in a show in New Orleans, according to an article in the SF Chronicle. but the negative comments were quite a surprise to me!  I am very "pro-electric" but the way it seemed, we will not have a choice of a Zap, Zap, or Zap much longer :-0 Sad.